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2006.09.22 01:07 "Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by A Wandering Libtiff User
2006.09.22 11:14 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Joris Van Damme
2006.09.25 17:08 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Joris Van Damme
2006.09.26 06:48 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by A Wandering Libtiff User
2006.09.26 10:48 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Jean-yves Le Ridant
2006.09.26 11:56 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by A Wandering Libtiff User
2006.09.26 12:50 "Re[2]: [Tiff] Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Jean-yves Le Ridant
2006.09.26 17:53 "Re[2]: [Tiff] Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Jean-yves Le Ridant
2006.09.26 21:20 "Re: Re[2]: [Tiff] Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Chris Cox
2006.09.26 23:25 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Jean-yves Le Ridant
2006.09.26 14:02 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Joris Van Damme
2006.09.26 13:38 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Joris Van Damme
2006.09.27 06:13 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Graeme Gill
2006.09.27 12:38 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Joris Van Damme
2006.09.27 19:42 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by A Wandering Libtiff User
2006.09.27 20:39 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Joris Van Damme
2006.09.28 18:39 "Re[2]: [Tiff] Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Jean-yves Le Ridant
2006.09.29 08:30 "Re[2]: [Tiff] Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Jean-yves Le Ridant
2006.09.29 12:50 "Re: Re[2]: [Tiff] Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Joris Van Damme
2006.10.03 11:26 "Re[4]: [Tiff] Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Jean-yves Le Ridant
2006.10.03 13:09 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Joris Van Damme
2006.10.19 12:56 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Leridant Jean-yves
2006.09.27 20:12 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by A Wandering Libtiff User
2006.09.22 13:55 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by Ed Grissom

2006.09.26 06:48 "Re: Status of ISO JBIG and CIELAB JPEG support", by A Wandering Libtiff User

> I'll state the obvious that nobody seems to notice, first. The LibJpeg
> library includes a definition for any 'unknown' color space. 

You're right, I didn't notice this.

> Only to next find that a prior convertion from A to B, to
> next convert from B to C to suit your purposes, accumulates convertion
> errors, where a direct convertion from A to C would do a lot better?

No, I understand.

> When adding support for ITULAB to 10 of these 27 codecs, are you
> planning to do 10 separate difficult jobs? Only to next find it hard to
> maintain as these 10 are modifications to open source libraries and
> you'll need to merge your changes and the public changes time and time
> again?

I should ask Lee what his intentions were with these patches to
libjpeg/libtiff.  It sounds like building colour conversion code into his
end-client (Hylafax) was the correct place to make changes, and to make only
minimal changes to the lib[jpeg|tiff] to ensure they didn't reject the
datastreams.

> It seems clear that color convertion isn't really correctly placed
> inside a codec. Instead of having 27 such color convertion modules,
> codecs should normally be made to return exactly what is there, and any
> convertion should be managed by the image processing layer.

I have no argument with any of this.  Typically the application author "knows"
the end destination and what colourspace he wants to end up with, and so
having a library do as little "processing" outside of the formats it's
designed to support is a prudent one.  I've seen numerous examples of
well-intentioned mistakes that the driver authors make when trying to be
"helpful".

> I've some, or at the very least I had some... I'll try and find them and
> get back to you later today.

I would love to get them, still.  Thanks!

> It is dangerous trying to build support for something based on bugzilla
> attachment, as many a bugzilla attachment is totally bazurk. Here's a
> tagdump.

Yeah, I know it was very much a risky concept...  on many levels.

> LibJpeg doesn't support the DNL scheme, and it's not valid inside JPEG
> compressed data inside TIFF anyway. What Howard did at the time, was
> 'patch up' the SOF marker to include the proper image length. Strictly
> speaking, this is now a totally invalid JPEG stream. But most
> implementations, LibJpeg included, can interpret the stream just fine
> and simply ignore the bazurk DNL marker.

Gack.  OK.

> This confirms my memory that Howard patched up the Y member of the SOF
> marker. It also indicates that subsampling is indeed used, and the
> subsampling values in the IFD are correct.

What a mess.  In my naivete, I'd thought that JPEG handled "true colour" data
as tri-planar data, but I suppose the temptations to use subsampling for the
colour component was too irresistable.

> I'm unable to answer these questions, best I can do is provide
> theoretical background and file analysis. I will also try and find the
> ITULAB JPEG images that at least at one time were part of my testimage
> library.

I would appreciate links to what are hopefully "reference" images that reflect
the correct output according to spec.

> I hope was somewhat helpful though. Perhaps someone else will jump in to
> answer your bottom-line questions.

Your answer was much more than I'd hoped, actually, and I appreciate its
thoroughness and attention to technical details.

Thanks again, Joris.  Your reply was useful, interesting, and provided the
detailed background which resolved my questions about the matter.

=R=